Hosted by Travis Tasset, the Value Talks podcast explores a range of topics that matter to people, including healthcare, leadership, and culture. In this episode, John Palumbo, Executive Chairman of ValueHealth, discusses his framework of the 9 Guiding Principles for a High-Performance Culture.
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Transcript of Episode 3
Travis Tasset: Welcome to this episode of Value Talks. I’m your host Travis Tasset, and today my guest is John Palumbo, Executive Chairman of ValueHealth and NueHealth. John, you’ve got a lot of different roles and hats that you wear here, but first of all, welcome, and thank you for joining me today. I think we’ll be having a great conversation.
I want to hit pause, John, for a minute. In episode one of Value Talks, we talked about purpose, and the role that it plays in work and in life. In episode two, we talked about the vision and how important it is to have a vision for our own lives, as well as business, and Dan went into great detail about the vision that he has for healthcare. That was essentially what I would call a 30,000-foot view, a big picture. I want to kind of decrease the altitude a little bit here, and start to talk at a more of a micro level of what happens within a business in terms of how they execute on their purpose and their vision. And one of the things that you brought to the table with us, since you’ve joined, has been a framework that I found really helpful, and that’s the nine guiding principles for a high performance culture. So, I want to talk through those with you, if that’s okay. And you break those down in terms of three different categories: personal, professional, and then value creation is your third category. It’s more of the enterprise business level. So, let’s start with the professional ones if we could. I just want to get your thoughts on them. We’ll go through each of these one by one.
Principle number one connects to the vision and strategy. Could you talk about that a little bit, and what that means to you specifically.
John Palumbo: Sure, and thanks for having me here today. Love the opportunity to be able to share our collective thoughts and experiences. Maybe before I get into the very first one, let me just take it one step back, and talk about, where did this come from, how did this come about. And certainly, I’m not an author of books, but through 30-plus years of a variety of experiences through six different organizations that achieved varying levels of success, I really found commonalities of what separates people, teams, and ultimately companies from mediocre performance to high performance. And I tried to simplify it based on my simple view of things, was just how does this work, how does this happen. And so, since I’m a creature of three, then the—
Travis Tasset: You love the rule of three, don’t you John?
John Palumbo: Yes, most people can’t digest more than three simple thoughts, at least if you saw my SAT scores, you’d understand why that principle’s termed.
Travis Tasset: Mine as well.
John Palumbo: That’s how it came about. And I said to myself, okay, what were those commonalities, professionally speaking? What were those commonalities from a personal perspective? And now, as times have changed over those 30 plus years, value creation actually has continued to morph. I even say today I may share with you a little bit of a different thread on the value creation as the millennial workforce and generation has come to be such a strong component, and really quite candidly the nucleus by which we are all building our value propositions to our customers and value creation opportunity. So, that’s just the backdrop.
So, when you go back to the professional piece, and you break down these three simple concepts of three, the first one is – geez, it sounds so fundamental, is just to go connect to our vision. Well, you really find the difference between companies that bring that vision to life and really commit to a sustained programmatic approach to within communication. It’s easy to say, “Oh yeah, I’m going to connect to the vision,” but if you lined up 100 associates, would they able to tell you what the vision is? Would they be able to even be close to articulating it? Then, how do they internalize it? How do you make that part of your work DNA, if you will, and how do I build that relationship with other colleagues? How do I help new people coming in? How do I help people that are struggling with getting the concept and internalizing it? There’s such a thread around it. So, to me everyone of these nine guiding principles seems so simple, but the separation factor is really around, how does our company, our team, and our individual employees internalize it and execute on it? So, connecting to this vision translates then to, do I understand the strategy that’s required to execute on that vision?
Okay, did we build the structure to support the strategy? Do we have the work processes to support the structure?
Travis Tasset: The resources.
John Palumbo: The resources, the work disciplines. In our case, our clinical work, our supply chain – I mean, you could go down into all the different areas of where our colleagues are delivering great value, whether it be to internal customers or external customers. And then, of course, the last piece is have we got an alignment. So, have we aligned our associates so that everybody understands those connection points? So, that’s just, to me, a very cool example of how connecting the vision begins to translate into our daily work, our daily time management, our daily prioritization, our daily communication, our daily collaboration. So, that’s what it means to me.
Travis Tasset: So, it’s essentially – is it fair to say that it’s creating that direct line of sight for everybody’s role in the organization in terms of how they can help fulfill the vision, the strategy of the organization?
John Palumbo: That’s a great question. So, there’s a dimension of success that you see in other companies where there’s this concept of, cascading through your organization, the information and the support so that everybody understands their role in achieving success, which ultimately means we’re accomplishing our vision and our purpose. And that personalization says, “Okay, I understand my personal role,” which is very gratifying, and means, in many cases, much more than just money. So, it defines the purpose, which was in some of our earlier podcasts.
To Move Forward, Embrace Change
Travis Tasset: Yeah, absolutely. Well, it’s interesting because there’s always organization goals, but there is no one single entity that’s going to accomplish those goals. It all happens through all of us being aligned and cascaded and doing other part to help fulfil that. Okay, so that’s the first one.
The second one you have as “enthusiastically embraced change.” I have my thoughts on that, but why, John, is this such an important piece?
John Palumbo: Well, since most of my career has been in healthcare, and then even when I look back to my early, early days, when I was in professional athletics, there was something about what made champions champions, iIs that they absolutely embrace the concept of “I’m willing to take the risk to embrace change.”
Take a look at Tiger Woods. He changed his swing four times, but he was number one in the world, so why would you change anything? His quest of constantly being better. So, the concept of having a process that embraces change is all about that thought of, you’re either going to get better today, or you’re going to get worse. You’ll never going to stay the same. And that’s what I think makes champions great, is that they have this DNA that allows them to do it.
Okay, so the rest of us aren’t world champions, so for us, it may be a much bigger struggle to enthusiastically embrace change because, okay, we all know we’re built and wired to hear that change is hard. Well, it starts though with an attitude of, if I’m embracing change, then I’m willing to put myself out there and take the risk. I’m willing to invest in myself. Well, what kind of investments do we have to make? And then it goes back to where I connect the two, my days of coaching in sports. What made the greatest players that I ever had the opportunity to work with so great was, it wasn’t – and this is a cliché that’s been written, so I’m not taking credit for this, but boy have I seen it – it wasn’t about that they did extraordinary things well, they did ordinary things extraordinarily well, whether it was Michael Jordan, or Billie Jean King, or Chrissie Evert, or Roger Federer, name them, it doesn’t really matter, Kevin Durant. They’re out there thinking and working in a different way than the rest. But everyone of us can be a champion in our role, when you connect to the team’s vision and the team’s goals, and you’re willing to make yourself better, there’s just a certain growth and enjoyment that happens.
And then there’s this other dimension called healthcare. If you decide that you’re going to put yourself in healthcare as the career path that you want, you by default then, must be willing to embrace change, because in our country, every 36 to 48 months, there’s a dynamic shift that happens somewhere in the industry that forces us to adopt change in some way, shape, or form. The Affordable Care Act five years ago, then it took us three years to figure out what was in it. Remember the famous line, well, we’ll read it, and we’ll figure it out.
Travis Tasset: You have to pass the bill to find out what’s in it.
John Palumbo: Right, and then we all digested, oh my goodness, what does this mean? Well, it means that value-based care is going to be taken for real, and we’re going to move to advance payment models, and we’re going to demand that the patient experience be different. And oh my goodness, the millennial generation is not going to accept it, what me as a baby boomer accepts as the way I’m going to be taken care of as a patient and technology. So, we could spend a half a day just talking about the change impacts of healthcare. So, again, very simple concept, enthusiastically embrace change. You got to probably ask yourself, is this the right industry for me, and am I in the right company if I’m unwilling to embrace change?
Travis Tasset: Absolutely. I mean, if you think about the famous Darwin quote, “It’s not the strongest of the species that survives, it’s the ones that are most adaptable to change.”
John Palumbo: There you go.
Travis Tasset: We have to have a learning mindset, which we talked about often as a culture characteristic that we want to continue to build and strengthen and reinforce. And then just the ability to be open-minded and to explore new things. And the saying about innovation is that necessity is the mother of all invention, so that ability to be open-minded and to embrace change, especially when you think about change being a fundamental law of the universe, if you will, there’s nothing but change happening all the time. So, I really particularly love that one.
John Palumbo: And it’s really interesting for us. I think some people also don’t necessarily understand the commonality or difference between change and innovation. So, you take a look at great big brand companies that you would think are high innovators. So, if you take a look at Amazon and you take a look at the first shareholder letter that Jeff Bezos wrote, and we just posted it on Slack, he operates with the day-one mentality since day one and every day since. And he renamed his new office building Day One.
So, when we think, and I think of Dan as this visionary and constant innovator, our responsibilities are to operationalize the innovations, to test the premise that those innovations are built on, so that we’re making sure that we’re operationalizing the right ones. And I guarantee you, whether it’s Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Netflix, all along the way, they made more mistakes. It’s just that nobody really knows about it in the outside world. So, that’s what’s the price of innovation, and that’s what the price of embracing change is, but the value it creates is immense when you’re building a high performance company that supports it.
Passion for Execution Is Key
Travis Tasset: Absolutely, and it’s often said that we don’t learn from our successes as much as we do from our failures, and that’s where, again, that spirit of innovation comes from. Okay, number three: passion for execution. Talk to me about that means to you, John.
John Palumbo: Well, I think that gets back to this little concept of waking up every day and having a decision to make: Am I going to be better today, or am I going to get worse, because I don’t fundamentally believe you stay the same? And so therefore, the quest of the delivering on what my goals are, what my priorities are, it’s setting the tone in terms of cascading that concept through the organization. I think it’s a mindset. What I’ve experienced through the years is that 90% of the competition gets beat because of passion and intensity and commitment to executing at a different level.
Travis Tasset: Or the lack thereof, right?
John Palumbo: Or the lack thereof, so you can lose to them because that. So, if you can – and every one of us can have a passion. Every one of us can go execute. Geez, somebody may present better than me. Somebody may be smarter than me. Somebody may have a better product or offering or solution than me. But if I can outthink them and outwork them and out-relationship, and out-communicate them, and that’s all part of my execution tactics, sometimes, you end up winning at the end of the day because as you’ll see in our third quadrant, the way you really deliver value today to the buyer is about knowledge and relationships, and how you communicate and build trust. So, these nine threads all connect together.
Travis Tasset: Absolutely, and that leads us into the personal ones that you have, the three for the personal. And you just mentioned that a second ago, thinking really hard is what you have as the first one. Thinking hard.
John Palumbo: Yeah, everybody goes, “Oh, I’m just going to outwork them,” and what I have found is it’s the will to win is in preparation. So, we can – and this is an important concept. You can truly think seven days a week, and still accomplish a great work-life balance. It’s really, really hard to work seven days a week and accomplish a great work-life balance. Sooner or later, you’re going to get burned out. And times have changed. We have so much more diversity, and activity, and family commitments, and personal interests that occupy our days that it’s important for us to build a culture, and I think we’re all beginning to understand the concept of thinking hard combined with the second element of working smart really can help you have a wonderful career, and still be very, very successful. So, the think hard is everything to me. And to me, I always measure it. If somebody is really thinking hard, and you’re in a meeting, or you’re asking a question, the person on the other end doesn’t have to say to you, “Well, you know what, I need to go back and look at my notes or my book,” because if you’re thinking about it, and it’s a priority, you should be able to articulate it on the spot.
Now, I’m not talking about things that happened eight months ago or six years ago. If you’re in it, and it’s a priority, you should be aware of it, and be able to articulate whatever it is. So, this think hard concept is such a differentiator.
Travis Tasset: Just to share a quote that kind of personifies this, Albert Einstein was once asked by a reporter: if he had one hour to solve a problem, how would he spend that hour? And he said, “I would spend 55 minutes thinking about the issue, and then five minutes solving it.” So, just want to bring that one.
John Palumbo: That’s a good one. I didn’t know that. I didn’t hear that one before.
Priorities, Preparedness, and Play
Travis Tasset: So, when we think hard about it, that allows us to do what you just said, which is work really smart. Most people work hard, and not necessarily work smart, so talk a little bit about that.
John Palumbo: I think what we’re trying to really identify and work on are, what are your priorities? And in today’s work culture, there’s so many distractions. We could be on email 20 hours a day, and really not be accomplishing what we need to accomplish, but we would have worked really hard, sat there and answered every email. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t communicate and be responsive to your colleagues and your associates, but you have to be able to fight for every minute that you can put in, which is about working smart, and you have to be able to defend that time.
So, one of the new concepts that I’m trying to do is, I’ve said, “I don’t want to any meeting more than 30 minutes.” Let’s start with 30-minute meetings, and then somebody has to explain, why do I need an hour. So, for those that are listening to this that are dealing with me, if they say, “Hey, I only you 10 minutes,” it’s because my job is to come prepared to that meeting. If I’m taking 10 minutes of time, I don’t need to spend nine of then educating you or prepping myself or whatever. My job is to be ready for that meeting, come, state the goal, state the issue, ask your opinion, get your advice, whatever the purpose of the meeting is, and to get out on time, so that I’m fighting from every minute of my day, and I’m protecting every minute of yours. And I don’t think that that’s an unhealthy thing at all to do. I think that’s how we end up being able to get home for dinner and still be able to great things.
Travis Tasset: Still have that work-life balance.
John Palumbo: Absolutely. And I think that’s what’s becomes an attractive workplace environment. And oh, by the way, when you do that, I think people will enjoy spending more time at their workplace, because they’re being efficient, they’re being effective, they’re feeling productive, and there’s certain amount of mutual respect that comes out of that being prepared, having fought through the issue, being able to articulate the purpose of the meeting, and respecting somebody else’s time. It doesn’t really matter what your role is in an organization, whether you’re the CEO, or whether you’re a young intern that’s working for us in the summer. It doesn’t matter. The same respect, the same kind of preparation should occur, and I think that goes back to building the culture of high performance.
Travis Tasset: Absolutely. And then your third and final, under the personal category is, “play a lot.”
John Palumbo: That’s the secret to holding it all together. Bringing that passion and bringing the intensity to work with you. If you’re always a grind, and you can’t take a minute to laugh about things, or to laugh about yourself, or to have a funny story, or to have a smile, and make sure you’re saying hello to everybody. I know you guys all think I’m from the east coast, in Philly, in New York, we don’t say hello, actually we do. We still live by the same values, because I always hear “Philly guys, whatever.” But truthfully, I think having a good time is – and I’ve often told my children, I really feel like I’m the luckiest guy in the world, because I’ve been working now for over 40 years, I don’t even want to count how many they are since I graduated from college, and other than literally nine months, I’ve had two small stints where I was involved in an organization where I no longer had fun. Other than nine months, I have never gotten up, and said, “Oh gosh, I’ve got to go to work.” But it’s not just because you’re having fun. It’s because you’re connecting to that vision. You’re embracing change, because, my God, if you fear change, and change is happening to you, you may dread going to work. It’s having that passion for an execution, to execute well. It’s all these things. They all begin to trail together to the ultimate goal, which is delivering value to our customers and to our shareholders. That’s the cool part. And the fun part is that’s what separates everybody else.
Now, how does that play out? Different companies do it different ways. Okay, everybody talks about Google, or you can go downstream and go see Cerner. And Cerner’s got different kinds of amenities. They define fun maybe a little bit differently based on the stage and the size of their company and the way their workforce has to be as a tech company, maybe different than service company. So, just because you may not have a full basketball gym in the basement of your company doesn’t mean you can’t have fun.
Travis Tasset: And if you think about it, I mean we may spend more time with each other at work sometimes, in some degrees, than we do with our own families. And man, I sure as heck want to be enjoying that time.
John Palumbo: That’s right.
Travis Tasset: So, value creation, in terms of at the enterprise level, we create value by, number one, through the knowledge that we have.
John Palumbo: Yeah, so this really begins to separate now how you grow your company. So, most companies and most folks that are responsible for growth sell or position the company three ways: relationship first, feature function of their product or service offering second, and price third. So, you’ll notice, and what I’ve tried to observe through the years is that when you do that, everything then focuses on price, rather than value. Okay, geez, I like you, and you got a cool thing, but what’s it going to cost me? So, in order to really establish value for a customer and grow our business, and to deliver a great patient experience, ultimately to deliver value for our shareholders and to each of us in our own way, it starts our three, our knowledge, then relationships. And then I’ve even going to talk about a little twist on the third one. I’m going to save it for a minute. So, let’s go back to knowledge.
So, what do you find if you line up 100 people from a company? Can they tell you who they are, what they do, how they do it, and why someone should do it with them?
Travis Tasset: And how perhaps it helps advance the vision and strategy of the organization.
John Palumbo: Absolutely. So, knowledge of your industry, knowledge of your company, knowledge of your customers, and then knowledge of your customers’ customers. As you invest in your own growth and understanding, the more you can connect with knowledge. It separates you, again, from your competition. And so, therefore, you’re now able to talk to decision-makers as truly an advocate and a partner in providing a solution for them that a salesperson by themselves just probably wouldn’t be able to do. Knowledge then really says, “We can deliver you the A team, because currently you may only have a B-minus team,” because not every company can have A teams, and every single person can’t just be the A team. It’s impossible. But we want to be able to position ourselves that way. We want to be able to create value. And so, therefore, we get paid the premium, we should get paid more, not less, because we’re going to deliver more.
And I think if you look at our performance with our NueHealth surgical centers and specialty hospitals, and you look at the clinical performance and you look at the financial performance, because we have such incredible knowledge of what we do and how we do it with what we’re doing for them, and why they should do it for us. And so, therefore, we should be able to get paid very well for that. And in most cases, we do.
Travis Tasset: Because there’s value that is provided.
John Palumbo: Real value that’s being provided on a sustained basis. And even just go down the line, you look at BML, Benefits Management, and they provide incredible value. They have incredible knowledge. You look at Healthcare Ray and what it’s doing from an innovation and all these cool things. Then you look at Muve, and you’re like, “Oh my God.” We’ve reinvented how to do a certain type of procedure. And how we bring this intellectual property and intellectual capital, and how we build the next part of it is the relationship side. All of sudden, you’re creating a value proposition that separates you from most of the others.
Travis Tasset: And that comes from truly understanding our stakeholders, our partners, our customers, and what their needs are, so that we can meet those things, right?
John Palumbo: Industry, our company, that’s where most companies break down. They don’t spend the time to cascade what we’re doing as a company, which is what you’re helping us do through all of our cultural alignment and communication programs and education, and knowledge transfer programs. Call it whatever you want. It’s just keeping all of us as knowledgeable as we can about who we are, what we do, how we do it, why we’re doing it. And of course, it always makes it easier when you have great examples and stories to tell about tremendous success.
Relationships and Communication
Travis Tasset: Yeah, storytelling is incredibly powerful. Anything more on relationships you want to say before we—
John Palumbo: Well, yeah. So, then the relationship piece. Still, people like doing business with people they like. So, simply by me saying I think it moves the second doesn’t diminish it any, because now the relationship is built at higher levels. So, we sell very complex solutions. I mean, our deals aren’t necessarily the simplest, the easiest things in the world to communicate. So, what you need to be able to do is have depth in breadth of the kinds of relationships that you shape, so relationships with executives, relationships with clinicians, relationships with physicians, relationships with payors, employers. So, if you think about that complexity, it requires us to be experts in our industry, experts about our company, so we know what we do, what makes us different. We know our competitive landscape, all of that. So, these relationships, then, are really built on the knowledge. And they add depth and breadth to it to be able to get deals done, or to be able to execute and deliver great care to our patients, the folks that are listening to this that are in our surgical centers or working here in corporate or in Philadelphia or wherever. They know how hard it to do what we do, and I think that’s what makes us so great at what we do.
Travis Tasset: And it takes the knowledge, right? It takes a team, as the famous saying goes. Well, those are the three by three, John, the professional, the personal – actually, we forgot the last one under value creation, so you have a little bit of a twist. I know what I think you’re going to say, but what’s the last one under value creation?
John Palumbo: Yeah, so here’s where it breaks down all the time, which is around communications. If you look at where individual relationships don’t work, where you look at team environment doesn’t work, let alone a large organization, it’s always around the communications piece. And I’ve also been sort of thinking about, in today’s world versus ten, twelve years ago, when I first wrote all these down and said, “Oh, is there something here that seems to be commonalities,” it was always about this communication piece. So, did I know that you, as person, did you know about me as a person? Did I know how you were measured on success? Did I eliminate surprises for you? Because every decision-maker knows there’s going to be challenges when I’m doing something different or new. So, if I say yes to your product service, solution, I know things aren’t always going to be perfect.
But here’s what would separate you from the average. Most people don’t want to get ahead of the problem. They just sort of let it happen, and hope it goes away. So, it used to be where I would say communication and eliminate surprises. Now, I actually think there’s something even beyond that, which is, the real requirement for value is, how can we build trust through transparency. So, if you look at what we’re trying to do, Travis, as an executive leadership team, we’re trying to execute every day on the simple things of how we connect, how we engage, how do we build trust, and how do we do that through transparent communications? And I think those are two dimensions that actually apply way more to the millennial workforce and the younger generation, even younger than the millennials.
In the old days, when I started, it was, okay, that person’s the boss, I’ll just do what they say, because if I want to keep my job. Now, it’s, hey, I’m here as long as things work for me, and it’s the right environment, and I’m growing, but it’s really okay for me to go somewhere else if I hit a roadblock. So, our responsibility is to build a great sustained growth company, is to keep constantly creating an environment that meets the needs and goals and aspirations of our employee base and our colleagues. And this whole concept of knowledge, relationships, communications, trust, and transparency, although it’s more than three, I would loop it more back into trust, because I think this concept of trust now is really driving a lot of career aspirations and satisfaction on the non-objective side of your evaluation of the company.
So, we measure it, obviously by, okay, am I growing financially? Am I growing from a challenge perspective? But this other thing over here just seems to be coming to life more and more. So, you put them all together. Hopefully, if anybody is really digesting this, hopefully they’ll say, “I can relate to where I have a good relationship, yeah, those things work.” And if you’re away of it, I just remind myself of it all the time. I try to go, okay, am I connecting, am I embracing change? It doesn’t mean you don’t challenge change.
Travis Tasset: Right, it’s got to be the right change.
John Palumbo: Yeah, I mean, just because somebody says, “Let’s go do this,” doesn’t mean that’s what we should go do, but once we reached consensus and you’re going to go for it, then you need – and that’s how I define loyalty. I define loyalty as the willingness to debate. But then once we reach an agreement, we’re all in. And then we’re going hard until we reach another consensus that we need to adjust it a little bit, course corrections along the way.
Travis Tasset: Even if personally I disagree, I’m going to commit to the course of action that the path forward. And going back to Bezos’ first shareholder letter, that concept of disagreeing, but committing, I think is an important one as well.
John Palumbo: Right, and you think about what he’s accomplished, you think about what Steve Jobs accomplished, and you think about all the failures Steve Jobs had. Everybody forgets about NeXT computers. You talk about, that was one of the biggest flops of all time. The guy lost his job. But still, did he change our lives in the whole world forever? Sure did. Did Bill Gates? Sure did.
Travis Tasset: Absolutely. Well, I love how you kind of expanded this third principle from just communicating and eliminating surprises to really being about trust, because the saying goes, “In the absence of information, people make things up.” And usually, we go to the dark side, and this is wrong, he’s not talking to me, something must be up, I may not be doing a good job. But with trust, even though we may not have talked in the last week or two, I trust that things are well, I trust that we’ll connect when the time is right, versus me just thinking that there’s a problem when there’s not.
John Palumbo: True, and if you know, I’m going to eliminate surprises for you, then that eases your uncertainty, because otherwise, you’d be hearing from me.
Travis Tasset: Absolutely. Well, John, thank you for walking us through that. It’s been a pleasure talking with you today. I just love working with you in this framework and everything else you’re bringing to the table, you really renewed the spirit of executing here with passion and connecting for the right reasons, so thank you for your time. Do you have any last comments you want to leave with us?
John Palumbo: Well, I think that compliment, remember, I think it has to go both ways, because part of it is the inspiration that I get from the quality of the folks that I get the opportunity to work with every day. So, that goes back to this whole thing works in every direction. And I got to tell you, I mean, I don’t know if I’ve met a person, anywhere in the company, that I couldn’t look at and say, “You know what, I think they really do want to be better today than what they were yesterday.” So, I would say, if you just aspire to do that, great things will happen. So, it’s just fun going on the journey together, so appreciate the opportunity to share the thoughts.
Travis Tasset: And the joys and journey, so thank you a lot. Appreciate it, John.
John Palumbo: Thanks, Travis. Thanks.
Travis Tasset: Please give us your feedback, what you liked, what you didn’t like, or if there’s a topic you would like to hear more about or for us to focus on, please let us know. You can send an email to Valuetalks@nueterra.com, N-U-E-T-E-R-R-A. In addition, we’re on Anchor.fm. You can download the Anchor app, or go to Anchor.fm/valuetalks. In Apple podcast, search for Value Talks.
